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Thank you.

This is Fronteras, A Changing America.

I'm KC Counts.

Thank you for joining us.

One of New Mexico State University's newest Aggie Legends joins us to talk about state politics, agriculture, water, the border economy, and how all of it has changed since he served as governor of New Mexico from 1987 to 1990.

Doctor Garrey Carruthers, Former New Mexico Governor, former chancellor of NMSU.

You've had lots of titles.

Thank you for being with us.

Thank you KC.

Good to be here.

What was your favorite job along the way?

My favorite job was when I was dean of the College of Business at New Mexico State University, and just happened to have one of their shirts on.

But I spent ten years in that capacity, and I just love being around the students and the faculty, and they let me lecture once in a while.

And that was after I had been governor and had been an executive in the industry.

So I got to mix with the students and talk with them about my experiences.

Most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.

Let's go back to your roots, and talk a little bit about growing up in Aztec, and how that shaped the man you would become.

Well, back then, the most of us who attended New Mexico State University actually grew up on farms and ranches.

It was a very rural state at that time.

And you grew up with that rural discipline where you behave properly.

You got three meals a day.

You didn't have television to watch.

No, no cell phones.

So you had to read.

You had to talk to your parents.

And so I came up in a very traditional home and with very good values, simply because your family was the unit that tied everything together for you.

We didn't have this expansive media presence that we have now.

We were influenced by everything in the world.

Back then, you were influenced by your parents, and great parents and great brothers.

And so I grew up in a rather conservative farm community, learn how to work hard, learn how to study hard.

And, I think it profited.

Your family, farmers themselves.

Farmers.

We still have the farm.

My brother farms it now.

Growing what?

Basically vegetables and alfalfa.

And it's in northern New Mexico, near Aztec, New Mexico.

Let's talk a little bit about agriculture in New Mexico.

And you know, you talked a lot about how our lives have changed and how mass media has consumed so much of our lives.

But how has agriculture changed and what have you seen over the decades?

Well, the first thing that's changed is a lot of agricultural land has gone out of agriculture simply because of the development.

When I came to Las Cruces to go to school in 1957, New Mexico State University was out here on an island by itself.

All the rest of was farmland around here.

Now, if you look at it, a good share that is in housing and industry and that that sort of thing.

A lot of land in New Mexico has been removed from agriculture and gone into housing and industrial development, that sort of thing.

And then the water situation has gotten worse.

We'll we'll move on to that in a moment.

But let me ask you first about the the building on agricultural land.

Would you say that that's because generational farming just isn't keeping up, that the new generations aren't interested in the farming, and so there's a better deal to be had by selling?

No, I don't think so.

I don't think that you can point to that as a major cause.

I think what you can point to is people like to live in the valley.

And so many of the housing developments out in the valley are here because it's a great place to build a house, particularly if you love mosquitoes and things of that nature and weeds and that sort of thing.

The valley is a place to be, but, you know, we have private property rights, and many people have attempted in the past by policy to protect farmland from being sold.

But under the laws of this state, in this country, that's private property.

And they want to sell it to a housing developer.

They can and they do.

And as a consequences, as an encroachment on of housing and industry on our beautiful valley here.

What are your concerns about that encroachment?

Well, the only thing that can offset basically is improvements in agriculture and the ability of agriculture to produce at a much higher level of yields than we did back when I grew up.

I'm actually an ag major from here and back in those days the yields the production happened to be a dairy science major, the yields of the milk cows that we had quite, quite a bit below what they now have bred and, and developed through, through places like New Mexico State.

So the yields have gone up.

The production practices are much better.

Much better fertilizer, pesticides, insecticides.

And as a consequence, agriculture has profited in way, but it's a much more expensive enterprise than it was when I, when I was in agriculture.

Okay, now I'm going to unleash you on the water, water situation, for our region.

Obviously there are, some court cases that, people be keeping their very close eye on in terms of what it will mean for folks in agriculture in southern New Mexico.

Well, the most recent news on this years and years long lawsuit with Texas, and I think we're nearing a final settlement and judgments have been made.

Several thousand acres of land in this valley are going to have to be vacated to make sure that the water that we promised Texas is going to be available.

And that is complicated by the fact we really haven't had any good snowfalls and rainfalls in several years now.

So as a consequence, I see water to be the major problem for agriculture going forward until it snows.

I always prayed for them to snow in all of northern New Mexico.

Snow in them in deep.

You know, we'll send helicopters to get them out if we have to.

Because thats where.

I dont mind that frankly.

But that's where our water comes from.

And they've just had dismal snowfall up there.

And we're in maybe one of those cycles.

The Colorado River has the same problem, and we're in part part of the Colorado River.

And and now California, Arizona and Nevada are having to make some substantial reductions in their water consumption just because it isn't there.

You have seen this develop over decades of time.

What, what are your hopes for solutions to the problem?

Well, basically, it's a natural thing.

You know, if we don't get snow, then you're just going to have to continue to cut back on consumption, whether it be for municipal use, agricultural use, there is no other alternatives than water.

And so I think that's what we're facing in the west in particular.

Now if you look at the news, as I do all the time, if you look back in the southeast and some of those places or in the midwest even, they seem to have an abundance of water most of the time.

Sometimes it's not very pleasant because it floods a lot and that sort of thing.

But we haven't had we haven't been blessed with the abundance of rainfall and snowfall that would have helped us out.

But it's also very cyclical.

I think we tend to worry sometimes this is always going to be desolate.

The the dam up there, Elephant Butte Dam, has a rule that when the, when the water comes over the spillway, the debt to Texas is paid.

And a couple of times in my lifetime the water has come over the spillway.

1986.

I don't remember the last time it was, but it's only a couple of times it's come over.

That meant Elephant Butte was full.

When was the last time you saw Elephant Butte near anywhere near the capacity has?

It's been years.

And we're talking about the possibility of just 2% this summer.

The, the farmers are telling me 4 inches the water.

That's what they're going to get.

And then pumping is now restricted.

So you see a lot of fallow land in the valley, and you're going to see a lot more of it in the future, particularly if the settlement is made where we actually have to abandon thousands of acres.

Does that mean more housing on that formerly fertile?

Well, you know, putting housing under the doesn't solve water problem actually complicated because you have to water for the houses, and I don't know how many acre feet of water my house uses, but it's probably a whole lot more than I'd like to admit.

And we've got a, you know, a lake for a swimming pool.

We got evaporation.

We have a modest yard, but there's a lot of water consumption in my house.

So when you build houses, apartments, and that's when you still have a water consumption issue, might you convert that swimming pool to a skate park for yourself?

You know, I'm going to use it for water ski competitions.

It's a big it's a big swimming pool.

Well, let me talk about your transition, we won't say from agriculture necessarily, because that's always with you, but your enter into politics.

What what made you want to enter the political world?

It was quite accidental.

I became a White House Fellow, which is a rather prestigious program where you go back to Washington, D.C.

and you spend a year working for a cabinet member or the president of the United States or so on.

And I was fortunately selected to do that.

While I was a young faculty member at New Mexico State University.

I ended up serving as Secretary of Agriculture, Earl Butz, and a guy named Campbell, who was the undersecretary.

Well, they would talk to me in a part of the White House fellows program is you get to talk to these guys and work with them, actually travel with them, that sort of thing.

And Richard Nixon had just resigned.

And as a consequence, the Republican Party was disarray.

And so Secretary Butz told me says, Gary I know you're Republican because you looked it up, I know you're Republican.

But he says, I want you to go back to New Mexico, and help rebuild the Republican Party.

When Richard Nixon resigned, the donors went away.

The volunteers went away.

The candidates went away.

He says we need to rebuild the Republican Party because we need a two party system in this country.

And I'm going to look to you, young man, to go back to New Mexico and see if you can help them out.

I came back to New Mexico, so I volunteered at the local Republican Party.

So the Republican, chairman gave me a little work to do, and I actually did it.

Well, along comes Senator Domenici and there's an election going on.

And President Gerald, then President Gerald Ford was going to be involved in that election.

And, Domenici said why dont you co-chair the Gerald Ford campaign in Dona Ana County?

I said, I don't have any idea how to do that.

He says, just get more delegates than they do.

So myself, my co-chair, got more delegates, than we have, the whole, the whole, the whole delegation here was for Gerald Ford.

Whole rest of the state went for Ronald Reagan.

And it was because we were good organizers.

So then the party recognized me as, hey, this is a new an up and comer.

And so when Gerald Ford ran nationally, I did it in the primary.

I served on his campaign.

Then I was asked to serve as chairman, state chairman of the Republican Party, because a gubernatorial candidate that I'd worked with in that campaign wanted to run for governor.

So I got involved, became chairman of the National Republican Party.

And once you get into an enterprise like that, you'd never get out.

There's no escape other than if you convict you and they send you to jail.

You served one term as governor because at the time, term limits, didn't allow you to serve a second consecutive term.

Correct.

Why didn't you run later and try to serve another term?

Was one enough?

Good story.

I went into business in Albuquerque, and two years after that, I went to dinner, my wife and I went to dinner with the two friends that we had befriended here at New Mexico State when we were all students down there.

And I'm driving down the road and I say, you know, I think I'd like to run for governor again, that, that was a lot of fun.

I really enjoyed that.

And so, Ralph and his wife Janet, sitting in the back seat, started railing, oh, Garrey, you don't want to do that.

Come on you're just establishing yourself a business.

You know who was, who was there to help you when you got of the governorship, etc... And my wife looked at me and she says, you can do anything you want to after the divorce.

So that was it.

What do you think your, when you look back on your time in office as governor, your greatest achievements were?

Well, I think we have one of the most efficient governments that ran.

I was, I was named as one of the ten most influential governors in education United States by one of the national magazines.

Spent a lot of time in that.

But I think the if you compare the the political environment in the United States today and when I was governor, is night and day.

We were kind to each other.

We worked with Democrat, I was Republican.

I worked with Democrats.

I'm one of the last governors of New Mexico, who was acknowledged to have worked across the aisle and in a very convenient way.

We we solved a lot of issues because we could work together.

And we were not opponents.

We were colleagues.

That's my proudest part of being governors, my ability to coalesce people around the right kinds of issues and get the job done.

What advice would you have, should the Republican candidate win the governorship for working with what will most likely be a democratically led legislature?

Well, they they just have to overcome that.

Because, you know, when I was elected governor, there were actually 21 Republican senators and 21 Democrat senators.

So that's pretty cool.

And then in the House, we had what's called a veto proof house, too.

You could, you could veto one of my bills because I had enough Republicans to overcome the veto.

So I was in a comfortable place.

If a Republican were to be elected this year, there would have to be an overwhelming change in the legislature, or that person was really going to have to learn to work with Democrat legislators.

Now, in this recent legislature, I'm a one of the founding members of Think New Mexico.

We proposed this medical malpractice changes.

Yes.

There are a lot of research and proposed that, and the only reason that worked this time is the leadership came from Democrats who were concerned about the condition of recruiting physicians and medical malpractice and the dominance of these attorneys.

They were concerned enough to carry the bills.

Every Republican House and Senate joined those Democrats to make that happen.

The next governor's Republican, they're going to have to be able to pull that off.

Any predictions?

I think personally, that the Republicans have good candidates, but our our numbers have declined over the years.

More and more people have become independents.

And so the wild card in elections now in New Mexico is where the independents are going to go?

And and so I don't have any idea and I don't know if anybody has any idea, but a Republican candidate is going to have to attract a whole lot of those independent voters.

Why are they independents?

They got tired of the Republican Democrat Party.

So and it's not a bad place to be because now you get to vote in a primary in either one of the primaries you want to vote in.

And so I think over time, the independents are going to be the driving political force in this state because of that law.

In Colorado, almost 50% of the voters now are independent voters.

And so independent voters are now the ones you have to cater to, because the Democrat and Republican Party membership has been slowly declining as a, as a percentage of our total population.

You mentioned efficiency as in state government during your tenure.

Was that something that you brought with you to NMSU when you became the chancellor of New Mexico State University?

And what were the challenges that you faced when you arrived?

Well, many of the management practices that I'm fond of actually started when I was a White House fellow in the federal government, and then I served as assistant secretary of Interior under President Reagan.

Those two, and then serving as governor taught you how to manage in a bureaucratic environment.

And it's different in the private sector, because I was in the private sector for ten years, too, and it's a whole different operation.

But how you manage and that is a is a delicate business, because the rules oftentimes are more profound.

In the academy here, you have shared governance, which means the faculty have a lot to say about the operation University.

So you have to understand that having been a faculty member, I could share their concerns and understood what their needs were.

But if you didn't understand and didn't know it, the faculty didn't want you to be president, I guarantee you.

So it's a matter of experience of going through my life cycle.

I gathered experience and how to manage in challenging, difficult times.

The worst times I managed it in New Mexico State when we had to cut about $38 million out of the budget during the, the early, oh, about 2014, 15, In there, we had to cut, I think it was $38 million.

That's very difficult.

But to do that, I fell back on my experiences.

You got to work with all the people.

You got to call me and talk to them, make agreements.

How are we going to cut $38 million?

It's not easy to do what's not pleasant to do.

But there were no riots in the street.

My house didn't get bomb.

Nothing happened.

Except we cut the budget.

Why was that necessary?

Because of the recession at the time, there was a serious recession.

And looking back, do you feel that it put the university on on a good path moving forward?

Well, I think we had to streamline the university.

Absolutely.

You know, anybody can manage on the way up, KC, you could be president of a huge corporation as long as it's going this way.

So when it goes this way, you have to be a manager.

And so when you manage to bring it back down to what you can afford, you make it more efficient.

And that has to happen once in a while.

And so there are pluses, but they're painful pluses.

But you have to eliminate programs.

What do you eliminate?

You eliminate programs that are not priority.

You know, when you're rich, you can do whatever you want to do.

When we got when we got lots of income, come in the University, do whatever you want to do.

So when you cut back, then you have to decide.

I don't think we can afford this.

I don't think we can afford this.

I don't think we for this.

And that's the tough choices you have to make.

Well, I know we are just about running out of time.

I want to give you a minute or so to, talk about what it means to be named an Aggie Legend at NMSU?

Well, my, my children say he's always been a legend in his own mind, so it's nothing new to me.

If you believe my children, but.

But it's a very nice honor to be a legend.

I've looked at the list, and as a matter of fact, I started that program when I was president of the university here, and so started it.

So, you know, to, you know, they're like 10 or 11 legends before I became a legend.

But, I think it's a wonderful program to acknowledge the special contributions of people that have been affiliated with our great university.

And so I'm very proud that people acknowledge my contributions to this great university.

Well, former Governor, Doctor Garrey Carruthers, thank you so much for being with us.

It was an honor to have you.

Thank you for inviting me.

And area high school students from Las Cruces were recently honored as the Mayor's Top Teens, KRWG Public Media Membership Coordinator Liz Liano talked with each of them, including Organ Mountain Senior, Eren de Leon.

Hi i'm Liz Liano Membership Coordinator here at KRWG Public Media.

An today we are going to talk to you some of the mayor's top teens.

Today we are welcoming Erin de Leon from Organ Mountain High School.

Welcome Erin and congratulations for being a top teen.

So, we'd like to hear a little bit about you and what you do.

So what is it that got you into being a top teen?

I think what got me into being a top teen was, my community service and putting hard work in the classroom and just being myself.

That's great.

So what are some of the things that you like to do?

What are you some of your activities?

Right now baseball is my main activity and, it's community service here in there whenever I can.

Yes, ma'am.

Very nice.

What, community service have you been doing?

I've done Habitat for Humanity and Project Dress a Child.

Cool.

So what do you do with Habitat for Humanity and the Project Dress a Child?

Habitat for Humanity helped with, like, homeless people and, helping them sort things out and kind of talking to them, having conversation and, giving them food.

Yes, ma'am.

So you've been, you've been partaking in that and helping, distribute food to people?

Yes, ma'am.

Very nice.

And the project Dress a Child what have you.

So Project Dress a Child is really fun.

A bunch of different sport teams come together from all high schools, and they help families out with, picking clothes, having a budget and staying within that budget to help distribute out clothes to families.

Very nice.

So it seems like you're really tuned into the community and, wanting to do things that help meet needs in the community.

And you said you play baseball.

Yes, ma'am.

What position do you play?

Everywhere.

Everywhere.

Mainly first and outfield right now.

Cool.

And how has your team been doing?

So far, we've been pretty good.

Yes, ma'am.

We're looking at a good season.

Cool.

So back to your community service real quick.

What made you want to help out with Habitat for Humanity and Project Dress a Child?

I first got into it with my, middle school Holy Cross, and I liked it and just continued with it.

Okay.

Very nice.

So right now you're attending Organ Mountain High School.

Yes, ma'am.

And where do you want to go in the future?

Wherever I can play baseball at.

Very nice.

And what do you want to continue on doing as far as your community service?

Honestly, I want to experience different, like, ways to help the community out.

I don't know yet, but figure it out.

Yeah.

That's wonderful.

So what school are you wanting to attend in?

And where do you want to go?

Hopefully NMSU, if everything goes out, God willing.

And, I want to go into law and study.

You want to go into law?

Wow.

That is, that is a very wonderful, big commitment.

What kind of law are you wanting to practice?

I like criminal justice and sports law.

Sports law?

What does that entail, necessarily?

It's like all different kind of contracts and everything.

Just sports related.

Okay.

Yes, ma'am.

Cool.

What?

Where do you see yourself going from there?

What do you mean?

Where, what city would you see yourself in five years?

I don't know about the city kind of, that's tough.

I like everywhere.

You like everywhere.

Okay.

Let's say, like, kind of in the mountain areas, mostly in Texas.

Wonderful.

Okay, great.

So you want to end up being a lawyer who focuses on sports law, doing some kind of community service as you continue to do, and you want to play baseball?

Yes, ma'am.

Wonderful.

Okay, Eren, is there anything else that you want to leave us with?

Something else you want to add?

I don't think so.

Okay.

Well, congratulations on being a mayor's top teen.

You've obviously worked very hard, and, it's been great to recognize that hard work.

Thank you for being with us, Eren.

Thank you.

Our thanks to Liz Liano and Eren de Leon, who at the time of that interview was a Senior and has now graduated.

And thank you for watching and for supporting local programing like this.

You can watch episodes of all our local programs at KRWG.org where you can also sign up to receive the Friday News Wrap, our weekly newsletter that helps you catch up on our local coverage for the week from KRWG Public Media.