>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WHITE SMOKE FROM THE VATICAN SYMBOLS A NEW POPE.

WE WILL HAVE THE DETAILS.

>>> ON THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF V-E DAY THE WINDS OF WAR STILL BLOWING CASHMERE AS INDIA AND PAKISTAN TENSIONS ESCALATE.

AND IN UKRAINE WHERE THE LAND RAGE CONTINUES TO RAGE.

LEIGH SPANN THE HISTORY OF THE POST-WORLD WAR II ORDER.

FIRST, LEON PANETTA WHO SERVED AS CRUCIAL A LEADERSHIP ROLES AS THE AMERICAN PROJECT EVOLVED.

DISTINGUISHED HISTORIAN MARGARET McMILLAN FOR HER PERSPECTIVE ON RELATIONS BETWEEN POWERS THEN AND NOW.

LATER, MICHELLE MARTIN SPEAKS WITH REPRESENTATIVE PRESLEY WHO IS RAISING THE ALARM OVER DETENTIONS OF INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION THROUGH VIEWERS LIKE >>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THERE IS A NEW POPE AS WHITE SMOKE SIGNALS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES HAVE ITS NEW LEADER.

WE WILL BRING YOU THE LATEST THIS HOUR.

>>> BUT FIRST, TODAY'S 80th ANNIVERSARY OF VICTORY OVER THE NAZIS IN EUROPE FEELS LIKE AN OCCASION MORE FOR REFLECTION THAN CELEBRATION AS INDIA AND PAKISTAN ARE IN CONFLICT.

FOR MUCH OF THE LAST EIGHT DECADES AMERICA WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE LEAD ON DE- ESCALATING.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS STAYING ON THE SIDELINES FOR NOW.

>> MY POSITION IS, I GET ALONG WITH BOTH.

I KNOW BOTH VERY WELL.

I WANT TO SEE THEM WORK IT OUT.

I WANT TO SEE THEM STOP.

HOPEFULLY THEY CAN STOP NOW.

THEY'VE GONE FOR TAT SO HOPEFULLY THEY CAN STOP NOW.

I KNOW BOTH.

I GET ALONG WITH BOTH COUNTRIES VERY WELL.

I WANT TO SEE IT STOP.

>>> RUSHES THE WAR OF AGGRESSION ON UKRAINE DRAGS ON.

PRESIDENT PUTIN'S SELF-DECLARED CEASE-FIRE CAME INTO EFFECT THIS MORNING.

MOSCOW ALREADY BROKEN AS RUSSIAN BOMBS KILLED AND WOUNDED CIVILIANS IN SEVERAL UKRAINIAN CITIES.

NONE OF THIS DETERS RUSSIA FROM CELEBRATING V-E DAY ANNIVERSARY WITH THE CHINESE PRESIDENT VISITING MOSCOW TO ATTEND FRIDAY'S VICTORY DAY PARADE.

IS AMERICA STILL THE INDISPENSABLE NATION ABLE TO FACILITATE PEACE?

OR HAS THAT HISTORIC ROLE EVAPORATED?

LEON PANETTA HAS BEEN CONGRESSMAN, CHIEF OF STAFF, DEFENSE SECRETARY, CIA DIRECTOR AND MORE.

HE IS JOINING FROM CALIFORNIA.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, SECRETARY, DIRECT HER YOU HAVE HELD EVERY ROLE.

THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE YOU.

LET ME ASK YOU FIRST ON THIS V- E DAY, WHAT SHOULD AND WHAT WOULD YOU ALL HAVE BEEN DOING IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION OR ELSEWHERE IF THERE WAS THIS ESCALATION BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN?

>> WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE BEEN BRINGING PRESSURE ON BOTH PAKISTAN AND INDIA TO PULL BACK FROM THE PRECIPICE OF A POSSIBLE WAR.

THAT WAS ALWAYS THE CASE.

WHEN I WAS DIRECTOR OF THE CIA, THERE WAS THIS KIND OF DISRUPTION THAT TO LACE.

TERRORIST ATTACKED INDIA.

I AND OTHERS ENGAGED WITH OUR COUNTERPARTS IN PAKISTAN AND INDIA TO TRY TO GET THEM TO BACK AWAY AND NOT HAVE IT ESCALATE.

I WOULD HOPE THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD DO THE SAME THING NOW.

>> WE KNOW BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TOLD BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS SPOKEN TO BOTH OF THEIR FOREIGN MINISTERS.

IS THAT ENOUGH?

WHEN YOU SAY YOU ENGAGED WITH THEIR TOP LEVEL AMERICANS THAT WENT OVER THERE?

>> THERE WERE TOP LEVEL DIPLOMATS WHO ENGAGED WITH BOTH PAKISTAN AND INDIA.

THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF CONCERN THAT IT COULD ESCALATE.

YOU HAVE TWO NUCLEAR POWERS HERE.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE LAST THING ANYBODY NEEDS IS ANOTHER REGIONAL WAR, PARTICULARLY IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

SO YES.

THERE WAS AN AGGRESSIVE EFFORT TO TRY TO GET BOTH SIDES TO BE ABLE TO DE-ESCALATE AND NOT MOVE TOWARDS GREATER WAR.

>> JUST A QUESTION.

THE PARTITION HAPPENED IN 1947.

SINCE THEN CASHMERE IS STILL UNRESOLVED.

IS THERE ANY PART FOR THE UNITED STATES AND A TRUSTED ALLY AS THE UNITED STATES HAS SAID TO FIGURE OUT SOME KIND OF PERMANENT SETTLEMENT FOR THEM SO THIS IS NOT A RECURRING INSTANCE?

>> YOU WOULD HOPE SO.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT CHALLENGE, CHRISTIANE.

IT DOES GO BACK TO 1947 WITH THE DIVISION OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN.

THERE HAVE BEEN THREE WARS SINCE THAT TIME.

1965, 1971, 1999.

A NUMBER OF MINOR CONFLICTS HAVE TAKEN PLACE AS WELL.

THE DIFFICULTY IS IT'S ABOUT KASHMIR.

KASHMIR IS THIS AREA IN THE HANDS OF BOTH PAKISTAN AND INDIA AND CONTINUES TO BE AN AREA OF EXTREME CONFLICT.

SO UNTIL YOU ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF HOW CAN YOU DEAL WITH KASHMIR IN A WAY THAT WILL BE ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH PAKISTAN AND INDIA, I'M AFRAID THE TENSIONS WILL CONTINUE IN THE FUTURE.

>> IT SEEMS REALLY CRAZY THAT FOR SO MANY DECADES IT IS STILL LINGERING AS AN OPEN WOUND AS YOU CAN SEE.

I WANT TO MOVE ON TO THE OTHER MAJOR WAR IN EUROPE EVEN NOW ON THIS VE PLUS 80.

WE JUST SET THERE IS A NEW POPE.

YOU REMEMBER FAMOUSLY THE REPORTS OF STOLEN SAYING, HOW MANY LEGIONS OR HOW MANY DIVISIONS DOES THE POPE HAVE.

THAT WAS HIS RESPONSE TO THE POTENTIAL SOFT POWER OF THE POPE.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TODAY?

>> AS A CATHOLIC IT IS SOMETHING THAT I LOOK FORWARD TO.

I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET WITH POPE FRANCIS.

WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE, WHICH HE WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT.

I HOPE THAT A NEW POPE WILL BE EQUALLY CONCERNED ABOUT TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN FIND A WAY TO TRY TO RESOLVE THIS CONFLICT.

MY HOPE IS THAT A NEW POPE WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO ENGAGE NOT JUST WITH UKRAINE BUT WITH RUSSIA AS WELL.

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER HIS PREDECESSOR POPE JOHN PAUL II HELPED ALONG WITH THE UNITED STATES TO STOP ANOTHER SOVIET INVASION OF POLAND AT THAT TIME AND ALLOWED EVENTUALLY POLISH FREEDOM.

SO THAT IS ALL WRAPPED UP IN THE QUESTION ABOUT WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS WAR IN UKRAINE IS GOING TO GO?

THERE IS A CEASE-FIRE, IT'S ONLY A TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE FOR THE V-E DAY CELEBRATION AND ALREADY THEY SAY IT'S BEEN BROKEN.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SHOULD BE ON TRYING TO END THIS?

>> WELL, IF WE ARE GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN AN EFFORT TO TRY TO AT LEAST GET A CEASE-FIRE AND TRY TO ESTABLISH NEGOTIATIONS, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON RUSSIA AND ON PUTIN.

LOOK, UKRAINE HAD AGREED WITH THE UNITED STATES TO A CEASE- FIRE.

PUTIN DECIDED NOT TO AGREE WITH THE CEASE-FIRE.

WHY?

BECAUSE I'M SURE HE THINKS THAT HE CAN CONTINUE THIS WAR AND NOT HAVE THE UNITED STATES COME DOWN ON HIM.

PUTIN IS THE KIND OF INDIVIDUAL WHO WOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WEAKNESS.

IF HE SENSES WEAKNESS ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES HE WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE UNITED STATES AT THIS POINT TO MAKE VERY CLEAR TO RUSSIA THAT IF IT CONTINUES THESE ATTACKS, IF IT DOES NOT AGREE TO A CEASE- FIRE THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL PROVIDE CONTINUED WEAPONS AND WHATEVER UKRAINE NEEDS IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND ITSELF.

THAT MEANS THIS WAR WILL GO ON AND PUTIN WILL HAVE TO FACE A DECISION WHETHER HE WANTS TO CONTINUE THAT WITH THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTING UKRAINE OR WHETHER IT IS TIME FOR NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT IS THE ONLY PRESSURE POINT THAT IS GOING TO WORK HERE.

>> THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONFUSION POTENTIALLY BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION AS TO WHAT RUSSIA WANTS AND DOESN'T WANT.

ANYWAY, ONCE THEY WORKED THAT OUT.

FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN DID SPEAK FOR THE FIRST TIME TO BRITISH RADIO BBC, SAYING THAT HE WAS QUITE UPSET ABOUT THE IDEA THAT KYIV SHOULD JUST GIVE UP TERRITORY OR THE UNITED STATES SHOULD RECOGNIZE PUTIN'S ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA.

HE CALLED THAT MODERN-DAY APPEASEMENT.

HE SAID EUROPE WILL LOSE CONFIDENCE AND CERTAINTY OF AMERICA AND LEADERSHIP OF AMERICA.

TO YOUR EYES, THE WHOLE TRANSATLANTIC COMPACT, WHERE DOES THAT STAND?

WHERE DO YOU THINK IT IS HEADED?

>> THAT IS THE QUESTION OF THE MOMENT, BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES THAT HAS BEEN FASHIONED BY BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC RESIDENCE FOR THE LAST 80 YEARS SINCE WORLD WAR II, UNITED STATES PROVIDING WORLD LEADERSHIP, A UNITED STATES WORKING WITH OUR ALLIES TO TRY TO ADVANCE PEACE.

IN MANY WAYS THAT HAS BEEN TURNED ON ITS HEAD.

THE REAL QUESTION IS GOING TO BE WHETHER OR NOT PRESIDENT TRUMP UNDERSTANDS THAT ULTIMATELY THE UNITED STATES HE CAN TALK ABOUT IT, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE'VE SEEN WHETHER IT IS INDIA AND PAKISTAN, WHETHER IT'S RUSSIA, WHETHER IT'S CHINA, WHETHER IT'S NORTH KOREA, WHETHER IT'S IRAN, THIS IS A DANGEROUS WORLD.

THE UNITED STATES HAS TO PROVIDE LEADERSHIP.

THE BEST WAY TO PROVIDE THE LEADERSHIP IS TO BUILD STRONG ALLIANCES.

WHETHER OR NOT THAT LESSON WILL BE LEARNT REMAINS TO BE SEEN AND.

>> FINALLY, A SICKLY WE'VE SEEN PUTIN AND XI CELEBRATING VICTORY DAY IN MOSCOW.

THEY SEE A VACUUM THEY WOULD LIKE TO LEAP INTO.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE ANYTHING RIGHT IN TERMS OF HIS INSTINCT ON WHERE THE WORLD IS.

LIKE WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT CHINA, >> WELL, I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT AT LEAST IN THE FIRST TERM HE HAD GUARDRAILS WITH PEOPLE LIKE SECRETARY POMPEO, WITH JIM MATTIS, JON KELLEY.

THERE WERE GUARDRAILS THAT TRY TO DIRECT HIM IN A WAY THAT WOULD IMPLEMENT THE KIND OF FOREIGN POLICY THAT WE HAVE SEEN SINCE WORLD WAR II.

UNFORTUNATELY IN THIS TERM THERE ARE NO GUARDRAILS.

HE IS PRETTY MUCH OPERATING BY INSTINCT, BY THE SEAT OF HIS PANTS.

YOU CAN SAY THINGS THAT YOU HOPE WILL HAPPEN, BUT THE REALITY IS FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE THAT NOTHING HAPPENS UNLESS YOU ARE INVOLVED AND TRYING TO INFLUENCE.

THAT MEANS IT IS NOT JUST THE PRESIDENT.

HE HAS TO EMPOWER PEOPLE LIKE SECRETARY RUBIO AND OTHERS TO BE OUT THERE ENGAGING WITH THOSE THAT WERE TRYING TO INFLUENCE.

OTHERWISE, THE UNITED STATES WILL BE A VICTIM RATHER THAN A LEADER.

>> ON THIS V-E DAY +80 IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

LEON PANETTA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW TO THE VATICAN OR THE NEW POPE HAS BEEN REVEALED TO BE ROBERT PREVOST, THE FIRST FROM THE UNITED STATES.

JOINING ME IS CHRISTOPHER BENITO.

HOW SURPRISED ARE YOU?

I NEVER SAW THAT NAME IN THE FRONT RUNNERS.

>> I MUST SAY I AM TAKEN ABACK.

HAVE YOU CONFIRMED THAT?

IT WOULD BE A TREMENDOUS SURPRISE.

IF IT IS, IT IS VERY INTERESTING CHOICE.

IT IS KIND OF LIKE PICKING AN AMERICAN WITHOUT PICKING AN AMERICAN.

HE'S SPENT LOTS OF HIS TIME IN SOUTH AMERICA.

I AM DOING INSTANT ANALYSIS HERE THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE.

HE SPENT MOST OF HIS CAREER OUTSIDE.

HE'S A MEMBER OF THE AUGUSTINIANS, VILLANOVA UNIVERSITY WOULD BE THE MOST FAMOUS EXAMPLE OF AN AUGUSTINIAN INSTITUTION.

>> LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE SHOCKED AND I KNOW YOU WANT CONFIRMATION.

IT IS AND HE'S TAKEN THE NAME LEO THE 14th.

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING NAME.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND ALSO TELL ME, THE FIRST EVER AMERICAN POPE.

THAT SAY?

>> IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

I RETURNED TO THE STATEMENT THAT IT'S KIND OF LIKE CHOOSING AN AMERICAN WITHOUT CHOOSING AN AMERICAN BECAUSE HE HAS NOT SPENT HIS CAREER IN AMERICA.

THAT MEANS TO ME, SAYS TO ME THAT THE REAL ISSUE WAS THEY WANTED THE RIGHT PERSON AND THEY DID NOT MIND WHERE THE PERSON WAS FROM.

BECAUSE HE HAD NOT SPENT HIS CAREER MOSTLY IN THE UNITED STATES, IT MAY HAVE MADE THAT MORE PALATABLE TO SOME CARDINALS WHO THOUGHT THE UNITED STATES IS ALREADY TOO POWERFUL, POWERFUL ENOUGH.

ON THE NAME, THE OTHER 14th, LEO THE 13th ONE OF THE LONGEST IN HISTORY WAS FAMOUS FOR BACK IN THE WORKER.

HE WROTE A VERY FAMOUS ENCYCLICAL WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE MAGNA CARTA OF SOCIAL HE PUT HIMSELF SQUARELY BEHIND THE WORKER.

SQUARELY BEHIND UNIONS.

I'M GETTING THE SENSE HERE, ONCE AGAIN I AM SIMPLY VAMPING LIKE THE REST OF US THAT THAT IS AN INDICATION THAT THE CONCERN THAT JOHN PAUL II HAD EXTREMELY STRONGLY, BENEDICT AS WELL AND FRANCIS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEFT OUT OF THIS CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY.

THE 99% VERSUS THE 1%.

>> GOD LOVES US.

GOD LOVES EVERYONE.

WE WILL WILL NOT PREVAIL.

WE ARE ALL IN THE HANDS OF GOD.

THEREFORE, WITHOUT FEAR, UNITED HAND-IN-HAND WITH GOD AND AMONGST OURSELVES, LET US GO FORWARD.

WE ARE THE DISCIPLES OF CHRIST.

CHRIST GOES BEFORE US.

THE WORLD NEEDS HIS LIGHT.

HUMANITY NEEDS HIM LIKE THE BRIDGE TO GOD AND HIS LOVE.

HELP US AND ALL OTHERS TO BUILD BRIDGES WITH DIALOGUE, WITH MEETING TO BE ONE COMMON PEOPLE LIVING ALWAYS IN PEACE.

THANK YOU TO POPE FRANCIS.

>> YOU ARE A PEOPLE EXPERT.

YOU JUST HEARD HIM SPEAK.

IT WAS PRETTY AMAZING.

HE PAID TRIBUTE TO POPE FRANCIS AND HIS LEGACY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> IT IS PRETTY CLEAR BASED THESE COMMENTS THAT THE CARDINALS DECIDED TO CHOOSE SOMEONE WHOLEHEARTEDLY TO CONTINUE IN THE DIRECTION THAT FRANCIS WAS GOING.

I NOTE A NUMBER OF THINGS.

THE NUMBER OF TIMES HE SAID PEACE, BRIDGES, DIALOGUE, INCLUSIVE, THE WHOLE WAY OF BRINGING EVERYONE TOGETHER, HE REPEATEDLY INVOKED FRANCIS BY NAME.

ONE THING I REALLY NOTE IS I THINK IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, THIS IS MY SIXTH POPE THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN SOMEONE READING AND ADDRESS.

THAT IS PROBABLY WHY IT TOOK THEM SO LONG TO COME OUT.

HE WANTED TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT HE WANTED TO SAY.

>> I WAS WONDERING ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS INTERESTING.

WHEN YOU TRY TO PROJECT FORWARD, DO YOU THINK WE ARE IN FOR MORE OF THE SAME?

IN OTHER WORDS JUST SORT OF ROUND OUT AND CONTINUE NOT JUST THE STYLE OF POPE FRANCIS, BUT MOVING THE CHURCH IN THE DIRECTION OF ACTUALLY SERVING THE PEOPLE RATHER THAN BEING CONSIDERED MORE ELITE AND OUT OF TOUCH?

>> IT CERTAINLY SEEMS THAT HE IS MOVING AWAY FROM BISHOPS AND CARDINALS IN THE CHURCH TODAY THAT ENJOY BEING NEAR THE FLAME OF POWER.

IT CERTAINLY SEEMS HE HAS PLACED HIMSELF WHERE FRANCIS PLACED HIMSELF, ON THE PERIPHERY.

WE MUST REMEMBER THAT THE CHURCH IS ALIVE.

THE CENTER OF THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER IN ROME.

HE SPENT SO MUCH OF HIS CAREER AMONG THE POOR FOR.

I'M THINKING OF 19 63 WHEN JOHN III DIED.

THEY KEPT GOING.

OF COURSE, LEO WILL DO IT IN HIS OWN STYLE.

HE HAS A REPUTATION FOR SOMEONE WHO IS NOT AS, PERHAPS WOULD SPEAK MORE MODERATELY THAN FRANCIS.

FRANCIS DID NOT SPEAK OFF-THE- CUFF.

HE ALWAYS KNEW WHAT HE WAS SAYING BUT FLOATED BALLOONS.

I WONDER IF THE CARDINALS WANTED SOMEONE WHO WAS, I WOULD NOT USE THIS WORD FOR LEO BUT SOMEONE SAID THEY WANTED A POPE THAT WAS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE BORING, ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES PUT IT THAT WAY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SO MUCH MORE TO DIVE INTO AS THE PAPACY REVEALS ITSELF.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NOW THE OTHER NEWS OF A TRADE DEAL BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE UK BRINGS INEVITABLE ECHOES OF HISTORY COMING ON V-E DAY.

IT IS THE LATEST AGREEMENT IN AN ENDURING ALLIANCE THAT HAS SHAPED WORLD HISTORY FOR THE PAST EIGHT DECADES AS THE UK PRIME MINISTER ACKNOWLEDGED TODAY.

>> TO BE ABLE TO ANNOUNCE THIS GREAT DEAL ON THE SAME DAY, 80 YEARS FORWARD ALMOST AT THE SAME HOUR.

AS WE WERE 80 YEARS AGO WITH THE UK AND THE U.S.

STANDING SIDE-BY-SIDE IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND MAKES IT TRULY HISTORIC.

>> INDEED IT WAS.

MAY 8 OF 1945 WINSTON CHURCHILL PROCLAIMED THE END OF WAR AND THE START OF A WHOLE NEW ERA.

LISTEN TO THIS HISTORICAL AUDIO.

>> IT WILL END OFFICIALLY AT ONE MINUTE AFTER MIDNIGHT TONIGHT.

TUESDAY, 8 MAY.

WE MAY ALLOW OURSELVES A BRIEF PERIOD OF REJOICING.

TODAY IS VICTORY IN EUROPE DAY.

TOMORROW WILL ALSO BE VICTORY DAY.

OUT OF THE ASHES WITH THE DEFEAT OF FASCISM A NEW WORLD ORDER WAS BORN.

TODAY WITH DONALD TRUMP AS ALLIANCES UNDERMINE ON THE FAR RIGHT RISES AGAIN, WHAT LESSONS CAN BE LEARNED FROM THESE PAST EIGHT YEARS.

MARGARET McMILLAN IS A HISTORIAN THAT WRITES WITH PENETRATING INSIGHT ABOUT HOW WAR DOES INDEED SHAPE OUR WORLD.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

THERE IS SO MUCH GOING ON TODAY.

NOT JUST V-E DAY BUT THE ELECTION OF A NEW POPE.

SOMEBODY COMPLETELY OUT OF THE TOP FAVORITES AND SO MUCH HAPPENING SINCE THE WAR ENDED.

TAKE US BACK TO WHEN IT WAS >> IT WAS OVER AND IT WASN'T OVER.

IT WAS OVER IN EUROPE LEAVING BEHIND A SHATTERED EUROPE.

WE'VE ALL SEEN PICTURES OF WHAT GREAT EUROPEAN CITIES LOOK LIKE WITH THE FIGHTING AND THE BOMBING DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

IT WAS A WAR THAT STARTED BECAUSE ADOLF HITLER WANTED IT.

IT CONSUMED HUGE NUMBERS OF LIVES AND PROPERTY.

WHAT THEY WERE FACING WAS VICTORY IN 1945.

A VICTORY THEY HAD TO STILL FINISH THE WAR WITH JAPAN.

THEY SUSPECTED IT MIGHT GO ON FOR ANOTHER TWO YEARS.

>> THEY CALL IT COMMEMORATING THEY SEE WAR WAGING IN EUROPE.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT IS BECAUSE OF ONE MAN AS WELL?

>> I THINK I WOULD SAY THAT.

I THINK PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS MADE IT CLEAR HE WANTS TO CONSTITUTE THE GREATER RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

HE'S TALKED ABOUT HIS PREDECESSORS AND ACTUALLY REFER TO THEM AS IVAN THE TERRIBLE, PETER THE GREAT, CATHERINE THE GREAT.

HE HAS THE VISION TO REINCORPORATE THE BALTICS AND SOME OF THE CENTRAL ASIAN STATES.

I THINK THE WAR WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT HIM.

IT SHOWS IN SOME WAYS THE PERSISTENCE OF HISTORY, HOW LEADERS OF NATIONS CONTINUE TO THINK OF HISTORICAL TERMS AND MORE IN THE LOST PAST.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN A PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC ENTITLED, THIS IS THE WAY THE WORLD ENDS.

IN LIGHT OF WHAT SEEMS TO BE GOING ON.

THE AIR.

WE WILL SEE WHERE THE PIECES OF THIS POST-WORLD WAR II ORDER AND UP.

HOW STRONG IS IT?

I'VE SEEN IN THE PAST AND A NEW ORDER EMERGES.

I NEVER EXPECTED TO LIVE THROUGH ONE.

>> WE SHOULD HAVE SUSPECTED.

WE THINK IT IS THE NORMAL SITUATION.

WE HAVE HAD A VERY LONG PERIOD OF PEACE SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

WITH RESIDENT PUTIN ATTACKING HIS NEIGHBORS WITHOUT PROVOCATION.

THE WARNING SIGNS AND THE SUSPICION OF THEIR OWN INSTITUTIONS.

I THINK WE ARE CERTAINLY OF CHANGE AND IT'S BEEN BREWING UNDER THE SURFACE FOR SOME TIME.

>> YOU WRITE NOWHERE IS THIS SHIFT MORE CONSEQUENTIAL THAN THE UNITED STATES.

THE ORIGINAL VICTORY.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS CHARACTERIZE THAT ROLE AS ONE FOR SUCKERS IN WHICH THE U.S.

RESTRAINED IT'S HARD POWER AND ALLOWED OTHER COUNTRIES TO BLEED ITS WEALTH.

IS THAT HOW YOU AS A HISTORIAN SEE IT?

WE KNOW PRESIDENT TRUMP A SICKLY SAID THE EU WAS CREATED TO SCREW US.

HE SAID THOSE WORDS.

HE TALKS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES BEING TAKEN FOR SUCKERS AND FOOLS AND VICTIMIZED AND BLED DRY.

IS THAT HOW YOU SEE IT AND IS THAT A FACT?

>> THAT IS NOT HOW I WOULD SEE IT.

IF I WERE TEACHING PRESIDENT TRUMP IN A CLASS I WOULD SAY THE UNITED STATES HAD A VISION.

FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT DIED TRAGICALLY BEFORE THE END OF THE WAR WANTED TO BUILD IN ORDER SOME OF THAT HAPPENED BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE DIVISION BETWEEN THE WARTIME ALLIES AND THE SOVIET UNION ON THE OTHER SIDE DEEPENED AND WE HAVE A COLD WAR.

THE ORIGINS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION WITH AMERICANS, THEY ENCOURAGED THE EUROPEANS TO TRADE WITH EACH OTHER AND REBUILD EUROPE.

THEY LEND MONEY AND PROVIDED MONEY THROUGH THE MARSHALL PLAN.

FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP TO SAY THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS SOMEHOW SANDBAGGED BY THE CREATION OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, IT ACTUALLY PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN MAKING IT POSSIBLE.

>> IS SOMEBODY WHO COVERS HISTORY AND MODERN WARS I'VE PLAN.

THE GENEROSITY, THE INTELLIGENCE TO KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO, IN THIS CASE EVEN HELP YOUR ENEMIES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY RISE FROM THE ASHES AS SOMETHING PEACEFUL RATHER THAN VENGEFUL.

IN 1947 SECRETARY OF STATE FORMER GENERAL MARSHALL SAID, THE UNITED STATES SHOULD DO WHATEVER IT IS ABLE TO DO TO RESIST --ASSIST IN THE RETURN OF NORMAL ECONOMIC HEALTH IN THE WORLD WITHOUT WHICH THERE CAN BE NO POLITICAL STABILITY AND NO ASSURED PEACE.

IT IS REMARKABLE THAT 80 YEARS LATER THE WORLD SEES IT SO DIFFERENTLY.

THEY JUST DON'T SEE THAT INVESTMENT IN THE FUTURE THAT HE DID.

>> I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.

THOSE IN CHARGE OF THE UNITED STATES DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR INCLUDING PRESIDENT EISENHOWER KNEW VERY WELL WHAT WERE COULD COST.

THEY SEEN IT FOR THEMSELVES AND EXPERIENCED THEMSELVES.

MANY IN CHARGE IN THE U.S. ALSO SEEN WHAT HAPPENED IN THE GREAT DEPRESSION WHEN COUNTRIES PUT UP TARIFF BARRIERS AND WORLD TRADE DROPPED OFF AND EVERYBODY SUFFERED.

THERE WAS AN ATTITUDE IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR THAT WE ALL BENEFIT AND WE TRADE WITH EACH OTHER AND SHARE PROSPERITY.

I THINK THAT WAS THE FOUNDATION OF THAT GROWTH AND PROSPERITY AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

>> IN YOUR STUDY OF HISTORY AND PARTICULARLY AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR AND THE DEPRESSION, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WHEN A GLOBALIZED ORDER, CERTAINLY ECONOMICALLY IS TORN APART.

THAT IS CLEARLY THE WAY THINGS SEEM TO BE GOING.

THEY WANT TO BE PROTECTIONIST AND TRADE ONLY ON THEIR TERMS ET CETERA.

WHAT IS THE LIKELY OUTCOME OF THAT.

>> I THINK THE DANGER IS IT WILL INCREASE MUTUAL SUSPICION AMONG COUNTRIES AND DESTROY TRUST.

WE ALL KNOW RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN HUMAN BEINGS AND NATIONS DEPEND ON MUTUAL BENEFIT THEY DEPEND ON TRUST AMONG NATIONS.

I THINK THE PRESENT POLICIES ARE DRIVING OTHER WOULD BE FRIENDLY NATIONS AWAY.

I SPEAK FROM CANADIAN EXPERIENCE BUT I THINK A LOT OF FUSS I FEELING THAT.

THAT IS WHAT CONCERNS ME.

A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE HURTING THE UNITED STATES.

>> OFTEN ECONOMICS BECOME A FOCUS AND A START FOR WAR.

>> IT LEADS TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT NATIONS THAT THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN GET IT IS TO SEIZE WHAT THEY WANT.

THAT'S PART OF PUTIN'S FOCUS TO TAKE UKRAINE.

THE JAPANESE BEFORE THE SECOND WORLD WAR FELT THEY WERE BEING SHUT OUT OF ACCESS TO RESOURCES AND MARKETS.

IT HELPED THEM TO DRIVE DOWN EXPANSION.

IT CAN BE DANGEROUS INDEED.

>> WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO GUESS WHAT THE NEW WORLD ORDER WILL LOOK LIKE, EVERYTHING AS I'VE SAID HAS BEEN TOSSED IN THE AIR.

SOMEHOW PIECES HAVE TO BE PUT TOGETHER IN SOME NEW AND DIFFERENT WAY.

WHAT DO YOU SEE THE FUTURE OF GLOBAL RELATIONS LOOKING LIKE?

>> SOMEHOW WE HAVE TO GET ON WITH EACH OTHER.

IF NOT CLEAR ROLES WE HAVE TO HAVE WAYS OF UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER AND DEALING WITH EACH OTHER EVEN IF WE DON'T LIKE EACH OTHER.

WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE A DRIVE AND SOME OF THESE SUGGESTING SPHERES OF INFLUENCE IN WHICH THE GREAT POWERS DOMINATE THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS.

IN THEORY THEY DO NOT INTERFERE WITH EACH OTHER'S NEIGHBORHOODS.

WE KNOW IT IS REALLY UNSTABLE.

WILL BE IN THE FUTURE.

PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS TEMPTED TO LOOK AT REAL ESTATE AND SAY PERHAPS WE WILL TAKE THAT FROM THE OTHER POWER.

I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOW BEING MOOTED IN WASHINGTON AND ELSEWHERE.

>> IS IT POSSIBLE.

I ASSUME THAT THOSE POLLS OF SPHERES OF INFLUENCE WOULD BE THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST, RUSSIA AND EURASIA, XI IN EAST ASIA ET CETERA.

IS THAT A SUSTAINABLE WORLD ORDER?

IT GOES ALL THE WAY BACK OBVIOUSLY TO THE END OF THE LAST CENTURY.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS SUSTAINABLE.

IT BREEDS RESENTMENT AND SUSPICIONS.

THOSE THAT FALL WITHIN THE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE DID NOT ALWAYS CHOOSE IT AND DON'T ALWAYS LIKE IT.

ONE OF THE GREAT STRENGTHS TO UNITED STATES HAD POST-1945 WAS THAT IT LED AN ALLIANCE OF WHAT NATIONS ACTUALLY WANTED TO BE.

THEY WANTED TO BE PART OF THE AMERICAN ALLIANCE SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY TRUSTED THE UNITED STATES AND THEY LIKED ITS VALUES.

THE SPHERE OF INFLUENCE IS A FORMULA FOR MUTUAL SUSPICIONS AND THE NATIONS WITHIN IT OFTEN RESIST.

>> TALKING ABOUT EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES, THE SO-CALLED TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE WHICH SEEMS TO BE PRAYING.

FAMOUSLY VICE PRESIDENT VANCE AND SECRETARY HEGSETH WERE SEEN DISSING EUROPE AS FREELOADERS.

JUST TODAY THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS SAID, THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY DAYLIGHT BETWEEN US.

WE HAVE THE SAME VALUES AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

FOR AMERICANS WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT EUROPE'S CONTRIBUTION TO AMERICA'S SECURITY?

CERTAINLY IN THE LAST 35 YEARS.

>> WHAT YOU COULD SAY TO EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS IS THAT THE AMERICANS HAVE PROVIDED THE BULK OF THE FORCE FOR NATO, THE TREATY ORGANIZATION WHICH IS THE CORE OF THE WESTERN ALLIANCE, BUT IT'S BEEN PARTLY AT THE WISH OF THE UNITED STATES ITSELF.

EUROPEANS HAVE GOTTEN USED TO THE IDEA THAT THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO SET THE TYPES OF WEAPONS BEING DEVELOPED.

THE UNITED STATES WITH DEVELOP THE MOST SOPHISTICATED WEAPONS AND DECIDE WHERE FORCES WILL GO.

IT AS BEEN ON BOTH SIDES.

THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT ALLOWED THE EUROPEANS AND CANADA TO SHOW MUCH INITIATIVE.

AS A RESULT THEY HAVE TENDED TO DEFER TO YOU IS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND THEY HAVE SPENT FAR TOO LITTLE ON DEFENSE.

THE UNITED STATES HAS A POINT THERE.

EUROPEANS AND CANADA HAVE TO FACE UP TO THAT.

>> POTENTIALLY THEY WILL MAKE AN ALLIANCE TOGETHER.

YOU STUDIED HISTORY ALL YEAR CAREER AND ALL YOUR LIFE.

I'M INTERESTED IN MEMORY AS WELL.

80 YEARS ON MANY OF THIS GENERATION, THE FEW WHO REMAIN WILL BE THERE NEXT YEAR OR THE YEAR AFTER.

MAYBE THERE WON'T BE THIS KIND OF CELEBRATION AGAIN FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS.

WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF MEMORY?

DO YOU THINK KIDS IN SCHOOL I TAUGHT SUFFICIENT HISTORY WHETHER IT'S HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OR FRANKLY WHEREVER?

>> I PROBABLY DON'T THINK THE KIDS ARE EVER TAUGHT ENOUGH HISTORY.

I AM BIASED ON THIS ONE.

I DO THINK WHAT IS USEFUL IN HISTORY IS TO EXPLAIN TO THOSE WHO ARE LEARNING IT, YOUNG PARTICULARLY HOW WE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY AND WHY THE INSTITUTIONS WE HAVE EXIST.

IF WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHERE WE CAME FROM WE DON'T UNDERSTAND OURSELVES VERY WELL.

WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT MEMORY IS IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE FIXED.

IT CAN BE USED AND MANIPULATED.

THE RUSSIANS ARE CELEBRATING WHAT THEY CALL THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR AND IT'S A WAR IN WHICH THEY MOST WON.

THEY DOWNPLAY THE CONTRIBUTION OF AMERICA AND THE BRITISH EMPIRE WHICH WAS ENORMOUS.

IT'S BECOME A PATRIOTIC TOOL TO MOBILIZE THE RUSSIANS AND TURN THEM AGAINST WESTERN NATIONS WHO ARE SEEN AS NOT TRULY UNDERSTANDING AND SYMPATHIZING.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF MEMORY BECAUSE IT CAN BE MANIPULATED AND USED.

I AM ALL FOR UNDERSTANDING THE PAST AND WHERE WE'VE COME FROM.

>> THE STORY CAN STILL BE WRITTEN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT DAY.

>>> MORE THAN 70 PRO- PALESTINIAN PROTESTERS WERE ARRESTED AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY ON WEDNESDAY AFTER DEMONSTRATING THAT PART OF THE MAIN LIBRARY AS TEMPERATURES CONTINUE TO RISE ON U.S.

CAMPUSES WITH INTERNATIONAL STUDENT VISAS BEING REVOKED AND SOME EVEN FACING ARREST.

HAVING BEEN ARRESTED ONE SUCH CASE IS THAT OF A TUFTS STUDENT, MASSACHUSETTS CONGRESSWOMAN PRESLEY.

SHE SPOKE TO MICHELLE MARTIN SHORTLY AFTER VISITING HER IN AN I.C.E.

DETENTION CENTER.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> YOU AND A SMALL GROUP OF LAWMAKERS RECENTLY TRAVELED TO THE IMMIGRATION DETENTION CENTER IN LOUISIANA.

HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

>> FIRST LET ME SAY I'VE LONG DONE WORK IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL REFORM SPACE.

I HAVE VISITED THESE SETTINGS THROUGH MY YEARS IN CONGRESS.

THE MOMENT THAT MY CONSTITUENT, TUFTS GRADUATE STUDENT WAS KIDNAPPED IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.

THIS WAS DURING RAMADAN.

SHE WAS ON HER WAY TO BREAK HER FAST SO HUNGRY.

SHE WAS PHYSICALLY ACCOSTED BY PLAINCLOTHES SHE THOUGHT THIS HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH HER HAVING BEEN TALKS TO.

SHE WAS TAKEN AWAY HANDCUFFED, SHACKLED AND THEN TAKEN 1000+ MILES AWAY, DEFYING THE JUDGE ORDER AND DENIED HER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF DUE PROCESS.

CHARGED WITH NO CRIME.

DISAPPEARED FROM THE SOMERVILLE COMMUNITY AND HER NEIGHBORS AND RIP AWAY FROM HER LIFE SIMPLY FOR CO-AUTHORING AN OP-ED THAT SENT THE HUMANITY OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

SINCE I HAVE LONG DONE THE WORK OF OVERSIGHT, ONCE SHE WAS KIDNAPPED AND OSTENSIBLY A POLITICAL PRISONER I KNEW THAT I WOULD FIND MY WAY TO RURAL LOUISIANA.

>> HOW IS SHE DOING?

>> I WAS STUNNED BY THE WAY IN WHICH SHE WAS COMPORTED HERSELF IN THE MIDST OF THIS.

SHE SHARED STORIES OF HER OWN EXPERIENCE AND THE OTHER WOMEN SHE'S DETAINED ALONGSIDE WITH.

SHE IS AN ASTHMA SUFFERER.

SHE USES TWO MEDICATIONS TODAY --A DAY.

BECAUSE SHE WAS DENIED DUE PROCESS SHE WAS ABDUCTED ACROSS INTERSTATE LINES 1000+ MILES FROM HOME WITHOUT THOSE MEDICATIONS.

SHE HAS SUFFERED SEVERAL SEVERE ASTHMA ATTACKS WHILE BEING CONFINED AT THE DETENTION FACILITY.

INADEQUATE MEDICAL CARE, LIMITED RELIGIOUS ACCOMMODATION.

IN FACT, A NURSE REMOVED HER HIJAB WITHOUT CONSENT.

THE THING THAT I WAS MOST BY IS SHE KNEW THAT WE WERE THERE FOR HER BUT SHE MADE NO APPEALS ON HER BEHALF EXCEPT TO ASK FOR OUR PRAYERS FOR HER.

FOR THE OTHER WOMEN.

BECAUSE SHE IS A GRADUATE STUDENT AND QUALIFIED RESEARCHER SHE CAME TO THE MEETING WITH COPIOUS NOTES SHE HAD TAKEN UP AWFUL STORIES OF WOMEN THAT ARE IN THE FACILITY THAT ARE BATTLING BREAST CANCER AND NOT RECEIVING ADEQUATE TREATMENT.

OF PREGNANT WOMEN IN THE FACILITY THAT ARE NOT RECEIVING THE PRENATAL CARE THAT THEY NEED.

SHE SPENT THE LION'S SHARE OF THAT TIME ADVOCATING FOR OTHERS.

SHE ALSO SAID AS SOMEONE WHO HAS WORKED, TRAVELED THE GLOBE AND WORKED WITH REFUGEES THAT SHE WAS IN SHOCK.

THAT A FACILITY LIKE THIS EVEN EXISTED IN OUR COUNTRY.

>> YOU'VE SAID REPEATEDLY SHE WAS KIDNAPPED.

WE SAW THAT SHE WAS PHYSICALLY ACCOSTED.

TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, LET'S SAY THIS.

THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY COMMENTING ON THE ARREST ITSELF HAS BEEN CLAIMING THAT SHE, QUOTE, ENGAGED IN HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> BECAUSE SHE WAS DENIED HER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AND THERE WAS NO DUE PROCESS, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING.

SHE'S BEEN CHARGED WITH NO CRIME.

WHATEVER ASSERTIONS THEY MAINTAIN, HAD SHE BEEN PROVIDED WITH HER DAY IN COURT THAN THEY COULD HAVE PRESENTED THOSE FINDINGS.

BUT AGAIN, ALL SHE DID IS CO- AUTHOR AN OP-ED CENTERING THE HUMANITY OF PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WHEREVER YOU FALL ON THAT ISSUE --IT'S MY BELIEF OUR DESTINIES ARE INEXTRICABLY TIED, ISRAELIS, AMERICANS, PALESTINIANS.

WHEREVER YOU FOLLOW ON THAT YOU CANNOT DENY HER RIGHT TO SAY WHAT SHE BELIEVES.

THAT IS A MATTER OF FREE SPEECH.

EVERY PERSON OF CONFERENCE -- CONSCIENCE EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH HER YOU SHOULD SUPPORT HER RIGHT TO SAY IT BECAUSE THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL TO WHO WE ARE AS AMERICANS.

EVERY PERSON OF CONSCIENCE SHOULD FIND WHAT HAPPENED TO RUMEYSA CHILLING.

>> THE ARGUMENT THEY HAVE MADE WITHOUT RESERVATION IS THAT NONCITIZENS HAVE DIFFERENT STANDARDS OF DUE PROCESS.

THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE THAT CLEAR IN HIS OPINION.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS MADE THAT CLEAR.

REPRESENTATIVES FROM HOMELAND SECURITY HAVE INSISTED THAT NONCITIZENS HAVE A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF DUE PROCESS RIGHTS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY YOU SAY PEOPLE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THIS.

>> DONALD TRUMP'S INTERPRETATION OF THE CONSTITUTION AND OUR LAWS IS WILDLY INACCURATE AND UNLAWFUL.

THAT IS WHY THE BEST OFFENSIVE STRATEGIES HAS BEEN LITIGATION IN THE COURTS.

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT LAW AND ORDER OR IMMIGRATION.

IT'S BEEN ABOUT POWER AND CONTROL.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WITH THE ANTI-FREEDOM AGENDA THAT WANTS TO CONTROL WHAT YOU CAN WRITE IN AN OP-ED, WHAT BOOKS YOU READ AND WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR BODY.

WHEN I SAY EVERYONE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THIS I SAY PEOPLE OF CONSCIENCE, EVERYONE WHO CALLS THIS COUNTRY HOME SHOULD CARE ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO DUE PROCESS FOR ANY PERSON THAT CALLS THIS COUNTRY HOME.

HER RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED.

MOREOVER SHE'S BEEN CHARGED WITH NO CRIME.

IF HER ONLY SO-CALLED CRIME IS HAVING CO-AUTHORED AN OP-ED, THIS COULD BE ANYONE.

>> LET ME POINT OUT SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO HAS INVOKE THE IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT WHICH HE SAYS GIVES HIM THE AUTHORITY TO DEPORT AN ALIEN THAT QUOTE, COULD HAVE SERIOUS FOREIGN POLICY CONSEQUENCES FOR AMERICA.

THE ARGUMENT SEEMS TO BE THAT THESE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE PARTICIPATED IN, PERHAPS RUMEYSA'S OP-ED, HAS CONSEQUENCES.

FOR PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT COULD BE TRUE, WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH WHAT SOMEONE IS SAYING OR WRITING OR A POSITION THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN, YOU HAVE TO AS A PERSON OF CONSCIENCE, AS ANYONE THAT CALLS THIS COUNTRY HOME, AS AN AMERICAN AFFIRM THE RIGHT TO SAY IT.

IT IS JUST FREE SPEECH.

THIS IS A FRIGHTENING FOUNDATIONAL FLOOR THAT'S BEEN SET.

AS I SAID, A BELLWETHER OF THINGS TO COME.

THAT'S WHY I'VE BEEN SO ENCOURAGED BY THE PUBLIC OUTCRY, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE RALLIED, LOBBIED, APPLIED PRESSURE.

I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT A DICTATOR LIKE DONALD TRUMP, THEY WANT A CITIZENRY THAT IS IGNORANT AND UNINFORMED AND INDIFFERENT TO THE SUFFERING OF THEIR NEIGHBORS AND ENACT IF.

WHEN IT COMES TO MY CONSTITUENT RUMEYSA BEING KIDNAPPED AND A POLITICAL PRISONER, I HAVE BEEN HEARTENED BY THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INFORMED ABOUT HER RIGHTS.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN IN DIFFERENT AND THEY'VE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN THEIR MOBILIZATION.

>> WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP HERE?

>> WE ARE IN REGULAR COMMUNICATION WITH LEGAL COUNSEL AND A JUDGE HAS ORDERED THAT SHE BE MOVED TO VERMONT.

SHE WAS TAKEN TO LOUISIANA ON PURPOSE.

IT'S ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY INCARCERATED STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

WHAT I HEARD FROM MANY WOMEN THAT ARE DETAINED THERE IS THAT THEY OFTEN CANNOT GET LEGAL COUNSEL.

IF YOU CALL SOMEONE AND SAY THAT YOU ARE AT THAT DETENTION FACILITY THEY WILL HANG UP ON YOU BECAUSE THE CHANCES ARE SO BLEAK THAT YOU WILL HAVE A FAIR PROCESS AND BE ABLE TO BE FREED.

FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WHAT FOR RUMEYSA TO BE FREE AND HER STUDENT VISA WHICH WAS REVOKED TO BE REINSTATED.

WE ARE ENCOURAGED BY THIS RECENT RULING BY THE JUDGE FOR HER TO BE MOVED FROM LOUISIANA TO VERMONT AND WE WILL SEE IF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HONORS THE RULING.

>> AS A CANDIDATE FOR A SECOND TERM, THE PRESIDENT MADE IT CLEAR HE WANTED A MASS DEPORTATION REGIME.

MANY PEOPLE SOUNDED THE ALARM THEN INCLUDING YOURSELF.

OVERALL, DO YOU THINK DEMOCRATS ARE OFFERING AN ALTERNATIVE, A CREDIBLE ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ADMINISTRATION ARE DOING?

>> I WILL TELL YOU THE WAY I SEE IT.

I BELIEVE DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN OPERATED WITH SCARED POWER.

THAT IS NOT POWER AT ALL.

DONALD TRUMP HAS MADE IT VERY PLAIN HE WANTS THE POWER.

HE WANTS TO AMASS THE POWER.

WHICH IS WHY WE WENT TO RURAL LOUISIANA BECAUSE WE CANNOT ALLOW THAT TO GO UNCHECKED.

WE CANNOT OPERATE AS IF THIS DARK, DYSTOPIAN VIEW DONALD TRUMP HAS FOR THIS COUNTRY IS AN INEVITABILITY.

WE HAVE TO RESIST AND REJECT IT AT EVERY TURN.

YOU SEE DEMOCRATS DOING THAT.

I AM CERTAINLY DOING THAT.

I AS IMPORTANT AS IT IS THAT WE BLUNT THE HARMS WE HAVE TO BE INTENTIONAL ABOUT VISION.

THE MOST COMPELLING ARGUMENT CAN'T BE THAT WE ARE NOT DONALD TRUMP.

WHAT I SEE AND HEAR FROM PEOPLE EVERY DAY IS THEY DON'T WANT US TO MODERATE OUR ASPIRATIONS.

THEY WANT US TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PROTECT THEM IN THIS MOMENT.

DEMOCRATS HAVE DEPLOYED THIS DEFENSIVE STRATEGY OF LITIGATION, LEGISLATION, AGITATION AND MOBILIZATION.

WHEN I SAY LEGISLATION, PEOPLE SAY YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY.

FIRST OF ALL, WE ONLY NEED THREE OR FOUR REPUBLICANS OF CONSCIENCE TO VOTE WITH US.

RECENTLY WE HAVE A DISCHARGE PETITION WHICH FORCES A BOAT IN THE HOUSE --VOTE IN THE HOUSE.

THAT WOULD FORCE REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES TO GO ON THE RECORD.

IT IS CALLED HANDS-OFF MEDICAID AND SNAP.

THEY KEEP SAYING THERE'S NO PLANS TO CUT MEDICAID WHICH IS FAKE NEWS BECAUSE THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN DO $1 TRILLION IN CUTS AND NOT CUT CRITICAL SAFETY NET PROGRAMS THAT ARE LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE AND THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE WHICH IS AN INDEPENDENT ENTITY HAS CONFIRMED THAT.

THE STRATEGY IS TO MAKE THEM WHERE IT.

SECOND, WE HAVE TO MAKE AN AFFIRMATIVE CASE.

THAT'S WHY I'M NOT GOING TO STOP FIGHTING FOR UNIVERSAL CHILDCARE, PAID LEAVE, REPARATIONS.

PEOPLE WANT US TO ADVANCE POLICIES THAT GO AS FAR AND DEEP AS THE HEART.

THAT'S HOW DEMOCRATS WIN.

WE WIN WHEN PEOPLE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY FEEL THE IMPACT EVERY DAY.

>> HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT AT LEAST AS FAR AS PULLING IS CONCERNED PEOPLE ARE NOT GIVING DEMOCRATS HIGH MARKS EITHER.

SOME OF THE CHANNELS CONSTITUENTS HAVE BEEN REALLY ANGRY.

THEY FEEL LIKE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT FIGHTING HARD ENOUGH.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS I BELIEVE WE ARE IN THIS SITUATION AND WHY WE LOST IS WHEN DEMOCRATS HAVE HAD THE POWER WE DID NOT USE IT.

IT'S VERY CHALLENGING TO BUILD THE COALITION AND THE MOVEMENT THAT WE NEED TO TO GET THE GAVEL BACK SO WE CAN STOP THIS HARM.

IF THEY QUESTION WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU HAVE THE GAVEL THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE ARE NOT ONLY BLUNTING THE HARMS OF THIS HOSTILE THAT WE CONTINUE TO ADVANCE AND SPEAK TO AN AFFIRMATIVE VISION FOR THIS COUNTRY.

I DO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE MAKING STRIDES.

NONE OF IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN QUICKLY ENOUGH.

WHATEVER YOU OFFER AS AN ELECTED IN THIS MOMENT FEELS LIKE IT HAS FALLEN WOEFULLY SHORT.

>> IS THAT BECAUSE DEMOCRATS ARE TOO TIMID?

>> I DO NOT THINK IT'S TIMIDITY.

I THINK IT IS A HOSTILE ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS NO REGARD FOR THE RULE OF LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION AND CONTENT FOR PEOPLE THAT CALL THE COUNTRY HOME.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BURNS ME IS WHENEVER DEMOCRATS ARE IN THE MINORITY I WILL BE ASKED, DO YOU THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR ANY BIPARTISANSHIP.

WHERE IS THE PARTY TO BE BIPARTISAN WITH.

MY HOUSE COLLEAGUES ACROSS THE AISLE ARE NOT OPERATING LIKE A PARTY.

THEY ARE OPERATING LIKE A CULT ANYTHING PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE STRIDENT THE REPUBLICANS REFUSE TO HAVE TOWN HALLS AND BE ACCOUNTABLE.

IT'S THE REPUBLICANS AND THE COMMITTEE HEARINGS THAT ARE SITTING SILENTLY.

THEY ARE REACHING OUT TO MY OFFICE BECAUSE THEY CANNOT GET A RESPONSE FROM THEIR OWN REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVES.

THAT IS WHY YOU SEE DEMOCRATS GOING TO REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS AND DOING TOWN HALLS.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN MAKING IT CLEAR FOR SOME TIME EVEN BEFORE HE TOOK OFFICE THAT HIS APPROACH WOULD BE BASICALLY TO FLOOD THE ZONE AND THEY ARE DOING THAT.

EXECUTIVE ORDERS ABOUT JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU CAN IMAGINE AS WELL AS A COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH TO GOVERNANCE.

GIVEN THE FACT THAT THERE HAS BEEN THIS AGGRESSIVE PUSH TOWARD POLICYMAKING, DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATS HAVE PRESENTED --I GUESS I WOULD SAY A COHERENT RESPONSE AND ONE THAT ACTUALLY MEETS THE MOMENT.

AND IF NOT WHY NOT?

>> THIS MOMENT REQUIRES US TO BE NIMBLE.

AS A STUDENT OF HISTORY IT'S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATION THAT EVERY GREAT MOVEMENT REQUIRES THREE THINGS.

IMAGINATION, STRATEGY AND STAMINA.

WE HAVE TO OFFER IMAGINATION, AND AFFIRMATIVE YOU FOR A COUNTRY THAT IS IN STARK CONTRAST TO DONALD TRUMP'S AMERICA.

WE NEED TO BE STRATEGIC.

WE HAVE TO BE INNOVATIVE AND NIMBLE.

WE HAVE TO HAVE THE STAMINA FOR THE FIGHT.

WE HAVE TO LITIGATE, I JUST LATE, AGITATE, MOBILIZE, WE HAVE TO DO DISRUPTIVE THINGS WE'VE NEVER DONE BEFORE.

I HAVE OCCUPIED THE HOUSE STAFF UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF CORI BUSH TO ADVOCATE FOR AN EVICTION MORATORIUM.

YOU SAW RECENTLY HAKEEM TO THE HOUSE STEPS IN REJECTION OF MEDICAID CUTS.

YOU SEE SENATOR SANDERS DOING STOP THE OLIGARCHY TOURS IN PLACES LIKE IDAHO WHERE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE SHOWING UP.

YOU SEE MYSELF AND OTHERS HAVING TRAVELED FROM EL SALVADOR TO LOUISIANA TO VISIT DETENTION FACILITIES.

WE HAVE TO DO THINGS WE HAVE NEVER DONE BEFORE.

WE HAVE TO BE DISRUPTIVE.

WE HAVE TO BE BOLD.

WE HAVE TO BE UNAPOLOGETIC AND WE HAVE TO MATCH THEIR ENERGY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>>> FINALLY, A SMALL RAY OF HOPE FROM AN EVEN SMALLER DOG.

IT WAS ABOUT 18 MONTHS AGO WHEN GEORGIA AND JOSH THOUGHT THEY HAD LOST THEIR BELOVED OXEN -- DOGS FOREVER.

A BID FOR FREEDOM AND WAS LOST IN THE BUSH.

MORE THAN 500 DAYS LATER, VALERIE WAS CAUGHT ON CAMERA NOT JUST SURVIVING BUT THRIVING ON AN ISLAND THAT IS POPULATED BY LARGE REPTILES, SNAKES AND FERAL CATS.

WITH THE HELP OF A LOCAL NONPROFIT, VALERIE HAS BEEN REUNITED WITH HER HAPPY OWNERS, SHEDDING TEARS OF JOY.

THEY WERE THRILLED AND A BIT SHOCKED TO SEE THAT SHE WAS IN SUCH GOOD SHAPE AFTER HER SOLO ADVENTURE.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG /AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

>>>