>> NOW, TO A POLITICAL CRISIS UNFOLDING IN BRITAIN.

AFTER THE LATEST RELEASE OF THE JEFFREY EPSTEIN FILES REVIEWED DETAILS OF PETER MENDELSSOHN'S TIES TO THE CONVICTED OFFENDER.

IN THE WORLD IN THE IS KIER WHO ADMITTED TO HAVING PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MENDELSSOHN'S TIES TO EPSTEIN, WHEN POINTING HIM ADVISER IN 2024, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP SIX CLAIMS HE HAS NO IDEA OF THE DEPTH AND DARKNESS OF IT, MENDELSSOHN WAS REMOVED FROM HIS POST LAST YEAR.

THE BRITISH LEADER APOLOGIZED TO EPSTEIN'S VICTIMS AS MORE INFORMATION COMES TO LIGHT.

>> I AM SORRY, SORRY FOR WHAT WAS DONE TO YOU.

SORRY THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WITH POWER FAILED YOU.

SORRY FOR HAVING BELIEVED MENDELSSOHN'S LIES AND APPOINTING HIM.

>> "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL"'S MAX COLCHESTER SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE IMPACT THIS IS HAVING ON POLITICS AND BEYOND.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU, MAX COLCHESTER, FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> HI, GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU COVER BRITISH POLITICS AND NATIONAL SECURITY AND YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FALLOUT FROM THE RELEASE OF THESE DOCUMENTS RELATED TO JEFFREY EPSTEIN, THE CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER WHO TOOK HIS OWN LIFE A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

I KNOW A NUMBER OF HIGH PROFILE INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN LINKED TO HIM, ALTHOUGH NO ONE HAS BEEN CRIMINALLY CHARGED AS A RESULT OF IT.

NOW, IT HAS BEEN KNOWN THAT THE PERSON, ANDREW, FORMALLY PRINCE ANDREW, HE WAS STRIPPED OF HIS ROYAL TITLES.

IT HAS BEEN KNOWN THAT PRINCE ANDREW WAS CONNECTED TO EPSTEIN IN SOME WAY, BUT IN THIS LATEST RELEASE OF DOCUMENTS, THERE HAS BEEN ADDITIONAL FALLOUT.

AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, TELL US WHAT THAT IS, AND WHY THIS LATEST DOCUMENT RELEASE HAS CAUSED A HUGE REACTION IN THE UK?

>> YEAH, AS YOU SAY, THIS IS NOT A NEW SCANDAL IN THE UK, IT HAS BEEN ROLLING FOR OVER A DECADE.

BUT, I THINK WITH THE LATEST BATCH OF FILES THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RELEASED SHOWS, IS THAT REALLY, SOMETHING THAT WAS SUSPECTED, BUT LONG DENIED, WHICH IS THAT EPSTEIN, HAVING BEEN RELEASED FROM JAIL IN 2009 FOR SOLICITING SEX FROM MINORS, QUICKLY THEN MANAGED TO GET PRIVILEGED ACCESS RIGHT TO THE TOP OF TWO PILLARS OF THE BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT, BUCKINGHAM PALACE, AND DOWNING STREET.

AND THESE LATEST BATCH OF EMAILS SHOWED THAT VIA PETER MENDELSSOHN WHO, AT THE TIME, WAS THE UK BUSINESS SECRETARY, AND A VERY FAMOUS FIGURE ON THE LEFT, HERE, WAS INTIMATELY INVOLVED WITH EPSTEIN, WAS SHARING A LOT OF INFORMATION WITH HIM, AND ALSO, IT SHOWS HOW THE VENN PRINCE ANDREW WAS VERY MUCH A CLOSE FRIEND OF EPSTEIN'S AT THE TIME.

>> AND THIS ALL OCCURRED AFTER IT HAD BEEN PUBLICLY KNOWN THAT JEFFREY EPSTEIN HAD THIS --HE WAS CRIMINALLY CHARGED!

HE SERVED TIME.

MANY PEOPLE CONSIDER THE TIME HE SERVED TO HAVE BEEN VERY LIGHT, COMPARED TO THE GRAVITY OF WHAT HE WAS ACCUSED OF, BUT NEVERTHELESS, IT WAS PART OF HIS RECORD, AT THAT POINT.

WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC ALLEGATIONS CONNECTED TO PETER MANDELSON AND WHY HAS THIS LANDED WITH SUCH FORCE IN THE UK?

>> SO, PETER MANDELSON WAS A SENIOR FIGURE IN THE THEN LABOUR GOVERNMENT, BACK IN 2009, 2010, AND WHAT THIS CASH OF EMAILS SHOWS IS THAT MANDELSON WAS FORWARDING SENSITIVE MARKET, SENSITIVE INFORMATION THAT HE WAS RECEIVING AS A SENIOR MEMBER OF THE BRITISH CABINET, ON TO EPSTEIN.

AND THIS IS INFORMATION THAT COULD HAVE BEEN TRADED ON.

AND SO, SINCE THESE EMAILS HAVE COME TO LIGHT, BRITISH POLICE HAVE ANNOUNCED THEY ARE INVESTIGATING MANDELSON AND THIS IS TURNING INTO AN ALMIGHTY CRISIS, HERE.

>> HAS MR.

MANDELSON SPOKEN ABOUT WHY HE WAS FORWARDING THIS INFORMATION TO JEFFREY EPSTEIN?

>> MANDELSON HAS NOT ADDRESSED THAT ALLEGATION, DIRECTLY.

HE HAS PREVIOUSLY EXPRESSED REGRET, OF BEING FRIENDS WITH EPSTEIN AND HAS PREVIOUSLY SAID HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THE SEXUAL ACTS THAT EPSTEIN ALLEGEDLY CONDUCTED.

BUT, THIS IS, NONETHELESS, A VERY SERIOUS ALLEGATION FOR HIM TO FACE.

IT REALLY DOES LAY BARE SOMETHING THAT HE LONG DENIED, WHICH IS THAT HE HAD LARGELY CUT OFF TIES WITH EPSTEIN.

AND ALSO, IT HAS CAUSED A LOT OF ANGER, HERE, AMONGST THE LABOR PARTY, WHICH IS NOW BACK IN POWER, BECAUSE MANDELSON, UP UNTIL LAST YEAR, WAS THE AMBASSADOR TO THE U. S. FOR THE UK AND HAD BEEN HANDPICKED BY THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, KEIR STARMER, TO TAKE ON THAT ROLE AND STARMER SAYS THAT BEFORE GIVING HIM THE JOB, MANDELSON WAS VERY CLEAR THAT HE HAD --THAT THERE WERE NO, YOU KNOW, MORE SKELETONS IN THE CUPBOARD WHEN IT CAME TO EPSTEIN.

>> AND ALSO, THE FORMER PRINCE ANDREW AND HIS FORMER WIFE, SARAH FERGUSON, IS ALSO MENTIONED IN THIS LATEST CASH OF DOCUMENTS.

IS THERE NEW INFORMATION ABOUT THEM, AND IS THAT ALSO SOMETHING THAT IS DISTURBING TO THE BRITISH PUBLIC?

>> YEAH.

THIS VERY MUCH CONFIRMS WHAT MANY PEOPLE ALREADY SUSPECTED ABOUT PRINCE ANDREW.

AGAIN, HE HAS NOT BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF ANY CRIMES AND HE DENIES ALL ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM.

BUT, WHAT THESE EMAILS, AGAIN, SHOW IS THAT HE WAS VERY CLOSE TO EPSTEIN AND YOU CAN SEE HIM CORRESPONDING WITH EPSTEIN, ORGANIZING VISITS TO BUCKINGHAM PALACE, THERE ARE PHOTOGRAPHS OF HIM KNEELING OVER A WOMAN, PRESUMABLY IN EPSTEIN'S NEW YORK APARTMENT, OR NEW YORK HOUSE.

THERE ARE MESSAGES, WHERE HE SEEMS TO BE WELCOMING A RUSSIAN WOMAN, THAT EPSTEIN SUGGESTS HE MEET IN LONDON, SO ALL OF THIS JUST ADDS TO THE PICTURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE OF HIM, THAT HE WAS, ESSENTIALLY, CORRUPTED BY EPSTEIN, THAT HE WAS --HE HAD ESSENTIALLY BEEN CORRUPTED BY THE PROMISE OF SEX AND MONEY, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY DAMAGING FOR THE WINDSOR FRANCHISE.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT HIS FORMER WIFE, SARAH FERGUSON, IN RECOGNIZING THAT COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THEM DON'T SEEM TO HAVE NATIONAL SECURITY IMPLICATIONS, OR IMPLICATIONS AROUND CONFIDENTIAL FINANCIAL INFORMATION?

BUT, HER NAME HAS ALSO SURFACED, AND IN WHAT CONTEXT?

>> SO, SARAH FERGUSON, WHO IS ANDREW'S EX-WIFE, HER NAME HAS SURFACED, BECAUSE SHE PRETTY MUCH --WEEKS AFTER EPSTEIN CAME OUT OF JAIL --STARTED EMAILING HIM SAYING, "HEY, CAN I COME AND SEE YOU?

I NEED SOME ADVICE ON THIS AND THAT. "

MENTIONING THAT SHE WAS STRUGGLING TO PAY HER RENT, SUGGESTING SHE BRINGS HER TWO DAUGHTERS TO MEET HIM.

SO, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE WAS A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP, NEARLY A NEEDY RELATIONSHIP, REALLY, BETWEEN FERGUSON AND EPSTEIN, WHERE SHE WAS CONSTANTLY BADGERING HIM TO WORK OUT HOW TO BEST WORK WITH THE WINDSOR FOUNDATION, OR WHO SHE SHOULD MEET AND IT REALLY LAID BARE THIS WEIRD ACCESS THAT EPSTEIN HAD TO THE TOP OF THE BRITISH ROYAL FAMILY.

>> PEOPLE ARE ACCUSTOMED TO SCANDALS, UNSAVORY THINGS, NOT ATTRACTIVE THINGS BEING ATTACHED TO THE ROYAL FAMILY, AND MEMBERS OF THE BRITISH SOCIAL AND POLITICAL HIERARCHY, BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE A REAL REACTION, THIS TIME.

IT JUST SEEMS SHARPER AND MORE INTENSE AND THERE IS ALSO THE PROSPECT OF A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

WHY YOU THINK THE REACTION IS AS IT IS THIS TIME?

>> BECAUSE I THINK IT REALLY LAYS BARE THE EXTENT OF EPSTEIN'S GRIP.

ON THESE TWO PEOPLE WITHIN THE TOP OF THE BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT.

AND IT ALSO LAYS BARE SOMETHING ELSE, WHICH IS THAT, FOR A LONG TIME, THIS WAS DENIED.

AND YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, AS OFTEN IN THE CASE IN THE U. S. , THE WAY THAT SCANDALS PLAY OUT IN THE UK, IS THAT FIRST, THE INSTITUTION DENIES IT IS A PROBLEM, AND THEN IT SEEKS TO DISCREDIT THOSE WHO SAY THERE IS A PROBLEM, AND THEN YOU GET A WEASELLY WORDED APOLOGY AND SOMEONE STEPS BACK, AND THEN THERE IS A FINAL ACT IN WHICH THE ESTABLISHMENT TURNS ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND DEVOURS THEM AND THIS IS THE ACT WE ARE NOW SEEING PLAY OUT WHEN IT COMES TO EPSTEIN.

ANDREW AND MANDELSON ARE BOTH BEING DENOUNCED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT, AND AS THE ESTABLISHMENT LOOKS TO CLOSE RANKS, IT PROTECTS ITS OWN.

>> IN YOUR REPORTING, YOU DESCRIBED EPSTEIN'S RELATIONSHIP WITH TRENT 27 IN USUALLY INTIMATE TERMS, INCLUDING AN EMAIL WHERE MANDELSON WRITES, "YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON THAT KNOWS ALL ABOUT ME, DON'T GO AWAY. "

WHAT DOES THAT TELL US?

>> WELL, I THINK IT SAYS THAT MANDELSON TRUSTED EPSTEIN IMPLICITLY AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY HE TRUSTED HIM SO MUCH, OR THE FULL EXTENT OF WHAT EPSTEIN DID FOR MANDELSON.

WE CAN SEE FROM THE EPSTEIN FILES THAT EPSTEIN APPEARS TO HAVE GIVEN MONEY TO MANDELSON.

THERE ARE BANK TRANSFERS SHOWING THAT AROUND $75,000 WAS WIRED TO MANDELSON IN THE EARLY 2000'S.

MANDELSON SAYS HE DOESN'T REMEMBER THAT WIRE TRANSFER.

THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT EPSTEIN PAID FOR MANDELSON'S PARTNER TO GO ON AN OSTEOPATHY COURSE.

SO, THERE IS SOME FINANCIAL GAIN TO BE HAD, THERE.

BUT, IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN THE EXTENT OF THE TRUST THAT MANDELSON SHOWED EPSTEIN.

AND WHEN YOU READ THE EMAILS BETWEEN THE TWO MEN, IT'S A VERY ODD RELATIONSHIP.

IT'S SORT OF LIKE A GODFATHER TO HIS GODSON.

EPSTEIN SAYING, "YES, I THINK YOU SHOULD DO THIS NEXT IN YOUR CAREER. "

AND, YOU KNOW, "I THINK YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH THE PRIME MINISTER LIKE THIS," AND, "YOU SHOULD PURSUE THIS BUSINESS INTEREST. "

IT IS A VERY ONE-SIDED RELATIONSHIP AND IT REALLY SHOWS THE POWER EPSTEIN MUST HAVE HAD OVER THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, HE WAS OFFERING ACCESS TO A VERY RAREFIED WORLD, HE WAS OFFERING MONEY, AND IN SOME INSTANCES, SEX, AS WELL.

AND THAT SEEMS TO BE A VERY, VERY POTENT MIX OF PEOPLE, AND THAT SEEMS TO HAVE WON A LOT OF VERY POWERFUL PEOPLE OVER.

>> SO, JUST TO CLARIFY, YOU ARE SAYING MANDELSON HAS SAID HE HAS NO RECOLLECTION OF RECEIVING THESE FUNDS?

>> CORRECT.

HE SAYS HE NEEDS TO INVESTIGATE IT FURTHER, HIMSELF.

SO, WE WILL SEE IF HE COMES BACK TO THAT.

>> SO, IN THIS COUNTRY, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THIS STORY HAS SUCH POWER --I MEAN, IT HAS POWER FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

ONE IS, THE FACT IS THAT THESE YOUNG WOMEN, IN SOME CASES, GIRLS, BEING SORT OF TRADED AROUND LIKE, YOU KNOW, TOYS, AMONG THESE POWERFUL MEN, IT'S DISGUSTING, IT'S ALSO ILLEGAL, AND IT SPEAKS TO A SENSE THAT WHAT HAPPENS TO WOMEN AND GIRLS --ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE WOMEN AND GIRLS -- HAS JUST NOT BEEN TAKEN AS SERIOUSLY AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

BUT, THE OTHER REASON THIS STORY HAS FORCE IS THAT IT SORT OF SPEAKS TO THIS INTERCONNECTEDNESS OF THIS GLOBAL ELITE WHERE APPARENTLY, THE WORLD'S RULES DON'T APPLY AND I AM WONDERING IF THOSE THREE LINES TO THE STORY ARE ALSO RESONATING IN THE UK?

>> YES, THEY ABSOLUTELY ARE.

I THINK, WHAT YOU SEE THROUGHOUT THE EMAILS WHEN YOU READ THEM --ESPECIALLY AS IT PERTAINS TO THE UK --IS THAT EPSTEIN IS ESSENTIALLY LEVERAGING EACH OF THE PEOPLE HE HAS ACCESS TO, TO GAIN ACCESS TO MORE PEOPLE, SO IN THE INSTANCE OF PRINCE ANDREW, YOU CAN SEE THAT HE BEFRIENDS ANDREW AND INTERESTINGLY, IT IS ANDREW WHO REACHES OUT TO EPSTEIN, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

IT'S ANDREW REACHING OUT SAYING, "HEY, I WOULD LIKE TO COME TO PARIS ON A PRIVATE TRIP, CAN I HAVE ACCESS TO A FLAT BED? "

AND EPSTEIN SAYS, "YES. "

AND THEN, EPSTEIN TURNS AROUND TO OTHER PEOPLE AND SAYS, "I KNOW ANDREW, WOULD YOU LIKE TO VISIT BUCKINGHAM PALACE? "

AND HE SORT OF USES THAT AS A MARKETING EFFECT.

SO, WHY ANDREW FELT IT WAS OKAY TO REACH OUT TO EPSTEIN AFTER HE HAD JUST BEEN RELEASED FROM JAIL, I DON'T KNOW, AND IT IS A QUESTION HE HASN'T ADDRESSED.

HE DENIES, YOU KNOW, THAT HE DID ANYTHING WRONG, BUT IT'S STILL A QUESTION OF JUDGMENT.

EQUALLY, WITH PETER MANDELSON WHEN EPSTEIN IS RELEASED FROM JAIL, HE SENT AN EMAIL CALLING IT, "LIBERATION DAY," WHICH IS REALLY QUITE ASTOUNDING, SO IT REALLY SEEMS THAT THEY JUST DIDN'T TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AND THEY DIDN'T GIVE IT THE WEIGHT THAT IT SHOULD HAVE DEFINITELY BEEN GIVEN.

AND IT DOES SPEAK TO THIS IDEA THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT SETS OF RULES FOR DIFFERENT SETS OF PEOPLE AND THAT BECAUSE EPSTEIN WAS WELL-CONNECTED AND WEALTHY, YOU KNOW, THE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM WEREN'T SO SERIOUS IN THEIR MINDS, AND THEREFORE, COULD BE IGNORED.

>> IS THIS TRANSCONTINENTAL ASPECT OF THIS INTERESTING?

OR, DOES THAT STAND OUT TO YOUR AUDIENCE IN ENGLAND?

>> YEAH, I THINK SO.

I MEAN, WHAT IS INTERESTING HERE IS THAT WE ARE SEEING A DEGREE --I MEAN, NO ONE HAS BEEN PUNISHED IN COURT, RIGHT?

BUT, THEY ARE BEING PUNISHED IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION.

AND THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE, IN THE UK, NOW.

THOSE WHO WERE INVOLVED ARE BEING OUTED, AND NAMED, AND SHAMED, AND THE INSTITUTIONS THEY WERE A PART OF OUR TURNING ON THEM AND ISOLATING THEM.

SO, IN ANDREW'S CASE, FOR INSTANCE, HE WAS OFFICIALLY KICKED OUT OF HIS ESTATE RESIDENCE IN WINDSOR, AND SENT TO A FARM IN EAST ENGLAND WHERE HE WILL NOW LIVES, AND THAT WAS THE ROYAL FAMILY'S WAY OF SAYING, "THIS GUY IS NO LONGER A PUBLIC MEMBER OF OUR PLAN AND YOU WON'T BE SEEING HIM VERY MUCH ANYMORE. "

>> IS THE ROYAL FAMILY MAKING A STATEMENT BY LETTING IT BE KNOWN THAT HE HAS BEEN UNCEREMONIOUSLY EVICTED FROM HIS LAVISH QUARTERS AND SEND SOMEPLACE ELSE?

>> COMPLETELY.

THAT'S THE WHOLE CHOREOGRAPHY, HERE, OF WHAT WE SAW.

AS YOU MENTIONED, HE WAS STRIPPED OF HIS TITLES LAST YEAR, WHEN THE FIRST BATCH OF EPSTEIN FILES WAS RELEASED.

AND THE PALACE SAID, HE COULD NO LONGER BE CALLED PRINCE, HE IS NO LONGER ALLOWED TO USE THE TITLE, "DUKE OF YORK," AND HE WAS ASKED TO LEAVE THIS HUGE, 30 ROOM MENTIONED THAT HE INHABITS IN THE WINDSOR ESTATE, BUT HE WAS STILL LIVING IN THAT MANSION, WHILE THEY WERE DOING SOME FARM THING IN EAST OF ENGLAND WHERE HE WOULD LIVE.

BUT, IT SEEMS THAT THE EXPEDITED THAT HOUSE MOVE IN THE WAKE OF THIS LATEST REVELATION, BECAUSE WHAT CAME OUT WAS SO DAMNING, WHICH WERE THESE PICTURES OF HIM KNEELING OVER AN IDENTIFIED --UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN, AND A BATCH OF EMAILS THAT SEEMED TO SHOW THAT HE WAS REALLY UP TO NO GOOD, OR SEEMED TO SUGGEST THAT HE WAS UP TO NO GOOD WITH EPSTEIN.

>> SO, IN THE UNITED STATES, THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL IS A FORMER PERSONAL LAWYER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL PREVIOUSLY DEFENDED THE PRESIDENT IN AN IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING, OKAY?

THESE PEOPLE, WHO HAVE STRONG PERSONAL, PROFESSIONAL TIES TO PRESIDENT TRUMP ARE NOW IN A POSITION TO OVERSEE ANY FURTHER INVESTIGATION THAT MAY TAKE PLACE.

THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, TODD BLANCHE, HAS SAID THERE ARE NO MORE DOCUMENTS TO BE RELEASED, THAT THEY ARE DONE.

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO HAVE BEEN PUSHING FOR THIS, DISAGREE WITH THAT.

BUT, THAT ISSUE, YOU KNOW, REMAINS SORT OF UNRESOLVED.

SO, MY QUESTION IS, IN THE UK, IS THERE MORE TO COME?

ARE THERE FURTHER INVESTIGATIONS TAKING PLACE?

IS THERE A FURTHER EFFORT TO INVESTIGATE WHAT THESE TIES MAY HAVE BEEN, BETWEEN THESE INDIVIDUALS AND EPSTEIN?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE KEY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE U. S. AND THE UK, NOW.

IN THE UK, WE ARE STARTING TO SEE DEEPER POLICE INVOLVEMENT, THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION INTO MANDELSON OVER HIS DISCLOSURE OF SENSITIVE, MARKET SENSITIVE GOVERNMENT INFORMATION TO EPSTEIN, WHICH COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY ALLOWED EPSTEIN TO ENGAGE IN INSIDER TRADING.

THE POLICE ARE ALSO LOOKING AT EVIDENCE THAT PRINCE ANDREW WELCOMED A 20-YEAR-OLD TO THE UK, AND MAY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN SEXUAL ACTIVITIES AT WINDSOR, SO THE POLICE ARE LOOKING AT PRELIMINARY EVIDENCE THERE, AN INVESTIGATION HAS NOT BEEN LOST, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THEY ARE LOOKING AT.

SO, THIS ISN'T OVER, HERE.

AND ALSO, THERE IS, POTENTIALLY, A HUGE POLITICAL AFTERSHOCK RUMBLING HERE, WHICH IS TO LOOK AT --THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS NOW ABOUT THE PRIME MINISTER, KEIR STARMER, ABOUT WHY HE APPOINTED MANDELSON TO BE THE U. S. AMBASSADOR, HOW MUCH HE KNEW ABOUT MANDELSON'S FRIENDSHIP WITH EPSTEIN BEFORE MAKING THAT APPOINTMENT.

WHETHER HE WAS ILL ADVISED, AND WHETHER HE SHOULD TAKE SOME FORM OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT APPOINTMENT.

SO, NOW, IT IS RICOCHETING OFF INTO VERY MODERN DAY POLITICS, HERE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, THIS COULD POTENTIALLY REALLY DAMAGED THE INCUMBENT PRIME MINISTER, SO IT IS VERY MUCH A LIVE ISSUE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> BUT, THE QUESTION, I THINK, GOING FORWARD, IS THERE ANY ROOM TO THINK ABOUT --IN THE WAKE OF POLITICAL SCANDALS, SOMETIMES PEOPLE SAY, "YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE NEED A SYSTEM CHANGE, WE NEED SOME GUARDRAILS, HERE.

WE NEED TO ESTABLISH CLEAR RULES ABOUT CONDUCT THAT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO AGREE TO, AND THAT WE ARE GOING TO THEN HOLD ACCOUNTABILITY FOR. "

AND I AM JUST WONDERING, IS THAT A CONVERSATION THAT IS HAPPENING?

OR, IS IT JUST TOO SOON?

>> I THINK IT'S JUST THE BEGINNINGS OF THAT CONVERSATION.

I THINK, AS WE HAVE DISCUSSED, ONE OF THE ISSUES HERE IS THAT NO ONE HAS GONE TO JAIL.

YOU KNOW?

EVEN EPSTEIN NEVER REALLY PAID FOR HIS CRIMES.

HE DIED IN MYSTERIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES BY SUICIDE, WHILE IN JAIL.

YOU KNOW, OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED, VERY FEW HAVE ACTUALLY ENDED UP BEHIND BARS, SO THERE IS A BIG QUESTION ABOUT THAT, AND THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION OF, WHAT YOU DO WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE ENGAGED IN NONCRIMINAL, BUT MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE BEHAVIOR?

FOR INSTANCE, IN THE UK, ONE OF THE FOCUSES HAS BEEN WHETHER MANDELSON --WHO IS A LORD, HE IS LORD MANDELSON --WHETHER THE RULES SHOULD BE CHANGED TO MAKE IT EASIER TO STRIP LORDS OF THEIR TITLES.

FOR INSTANCE, IF THEY ARE SHOWN TO BEHAVE BADLY.

SO, WE ARE STARTING TO SEE CHANGES IN THAT SORT OF DIRECTION TO TRY AND HOLD PEOPLE WHO HAVE POWER, TO ACCOUNT.

>> MAX COLCHESTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.